从《华尔街日报》采访可看出任正非的“大智慧”(Interview with The Wall Street Journal indicating Ren Zhengfei's great wisdom)

采访摘要如下(Summary of interview showed as below)

2019年11月5日，深圳 (November 5, 2019,Shenzhen, China)

1、《华尔街日报》总编 Matt Murray：任先生，谢谢您！非常高兴今天能有机会接受邀请到华为看一看,并采访您。我们刚刚在您欧洲风格的园区还有俄罗斯风格的走廊转了转。所有建筑都非常宏伟。在当前的形势下，您是不是想借此传递关于华为实力，或者深受商界影响的中国在全球舞台所展现出的实力的一些信息？作为一位美国人，我在来到华为，看到这些宏伟的建筑以及您向我们展现的其他所有东西之后，很难不这么想。所以这里面是不是想传递出一些什么信息？

Matt Murray, Editor in Chief, The Wall Street Journal: Mr. Ren, thank you. It's a real pleasure to be here and thank you so much for inviting us to visit you here to ask a few questions. We're very grateful. So, we just toured your European campus and saw your Russian corridors. It's a grand series of buildings you've constructed. Is there a message in this about the power of Huawei at this point in time? Or the power of China as a corporate presence at this time? It's hard for me as an American not to feel that, coming in here, this grand space and all the things you wanted us to see, is there some message in it?

任正非：首先感谢你们来采访我，你们可以尖锐提问，我会坦诚回答。

松山湖溪流背坡村基地建筑群和机加中心展厅建筑都是日本人设计的。我们每个产品线都有一个类似这样的展厅，展厅一般设在地下一层，参观完以后到地面上来喝杯咖啡、开个小会；两个白色、黄色的大厅是为开大会用的。所以，这些艺术设计都是建筑师促成的，与我们的文化宣传没有关系。

我们正在上海青浦新修一个研发基地，大概有2600亩地，由5个西方著名的建筑师公司设计。他们参照芝加哥湖边建筑群景观设计，带有现代经典建筑气息，和上海十里洋场环境结合起来，容纳外国科学家在那里工作。所以，建筑本身与华为文化没有关系，与建筑师的欣赏与投标、中标有关。

To start with, I want to say thank you for this interview. Please feel free to ask me the most challenging questions you have. I will try and be very direct in my answers.

Both the Xi Liu Bei Po Cun on our Songshan Lake campus and the exhibition hall in the Jijia Center were designed by Japanese architects. Each of our product lines has an exhibition hall like this, usually in the basement. After customers tour the halls, we invite them upstairs for a coffee and a chat. These two white and yellow halls were designed for big meetings. So my point is, all these artistic designs came from these architects. They have nothing to do with the culture that we want to disseminate.

We are also building another new R&D campus in Qingpu, Shanghai that is about 430 acres across. Five world-renowned Western architecture companies are participating in its design. They have come up with a modern but classical design that references the views along Chicago's waterfront. Of course, this design will be influenced by old Shanghai glamor. When it's ready, scientists from outside China will be sent there to get to work. The designs of these buildings have a lot to do with the taste of architects and their bids and nothing to do with Huawei's culture.

Matt Murray：你们的员工在引导我们进展厅走过一个走廊时，说这是“川普走廊”，所以下面的走廊是不是承载什么特别的信息？

Matt Murray: While your employee was guiding us down one corridor to the exhibition hall, they said that it was the "Trump Corridor". So no message in the corridor?

任正非：没有。但是它很美，是由150多个俄罗斯著名画家画的。因为他们国家受美国制裁，生活困难没有着落，由于经济困难而来为我们画画的。他们说“没有川普制裁，根本不可能有这么多画家为你们画画的”。他们休息喝咖啡的时候，戏称这条走廊叫“川普走廊”，说你们要感谢他，连克里姆林宫也没有这样漂亮的走廊。

No. But it's very beautiful. Those paintings are the works by over 150 famous Russian artists. Due to US sanctions, they are living a difficult life. They came to paint for us because of the economic difficulties in their country. They said if Russia was not sanctioned by the Trump administration, it was unlikely that they would have come to do this work for us. When they were having a coffee here, they joked that this corridor could be called the "Trump Corridor". They said that we should thank Trump, because even the Kremlin doesn't have such a beautiful corridor.

Matt Murray：你觉得特朗普总统会到这里来看一看这个走廊吗？您没有想过他会亲自过来看一看吗？

Do you think President Trump would ever come to see this corridor? Can you imagine him coming here and seeing it?

任正非：非常欢迎他来。如果他在任期间不方便，可以退休以后过来，我们会很热烈地欢迎他。退休后的卡特总统在多年前就曾经来过我们公司。我们欢迎美国的总统、议员、高官、记者……，有机会来华为访问，我们会很热情接待，毕竟美国是伟大的创新型国家。

I would really like to have him here. If it's not convenient for him when he's still in office, he's also welcome to come later. We will certainly give him a warm welcome. Many years ago, President Carter visited Huawei after he left office. We will also show our warmest welcome to US congresspersons, other senior government officials, and journalists. The US is a great and innovative nation.

2、Matt Murray：现在，我们来聊聊美国。其实从很久之前，在特朗普总统上任前，奥巴马总统在任期间，也就是说在特朗普和奥巴马担任总统期间，华为和美国之间就存在问题。您觉得美国政府和华为之间长期存在对抗的根本原因是什么？

Matt Murray: Let me ask about the US. Long before President Trump, or even President Obama, there have been difficulties with Huawei in the US under both administrations. What do you think is the root cause of the long history of complications between the US government and Huawei?

任正非：我认为，美国政府和我们没有根源上的对抗。我们公司一直是比较崇拜美国的，大量学习美国文化与管理。从华为创业开始，“不眠的硅谷”这种美国精神就铭刻在全体员工心里，我们一直努力在向美国学习。硅谷有很多公司在车库里创业，我们那时候没有车库，就在城中村农民房里创业，也是一步步走过来的，美国公司走过的历史都是我们学习的榜样。过去二十多年，先后有几十个美国的咨询公司给我们提供了管理咨询。这些顾问公司都十分清楚我们的组织结构与流程，流淌的都是美式文化；我们的财务审计十几年来都是KPMG，如果想了解华为的财务状况，只要在KPMG看十多年的底稿，就可以知晓华为真实的财务状况。

因为三十年来我们都是困难重重的，习惯了困难，所以我们没有感到奥巴马时代带给我们多大困难，特朗普时代给我们带来了一种激励，逼迫我们不能惰怠，为了生存下来就要努力“划船”。大家如此努力地“划船”，把今年的销售收入划多了，利润也划高了。如果今年年底公布的利润高了，我会很担忧世界怎么看我们。华为被打压，怎么利润还高了？其实就是因为全体员工更加努力了。因此，我没有感到和美国之间有多大冲突。

In essence, I don't think there has been confrontation between the US government and Huawei. Our company has always had great admiration for the US. We have learned a lot from its culture and management.

Since Huawei was founded, the sleepless spirit of Silicon Valley has been engraved in the hearts of all our employees. We've been working so hard to learn from the US. Many startups in Silicon Valley were started in garages. Huawei didn't even have one of those. We started in a shabby apartment and have become what we are today by taking one step at a time. The experiences of US companies are good examples for us to keep in mind.

Over the past 20-plus years, we have invited dozens of American consulting firms, to advise us on our management. They have a clear big picture of our organizational structure and processes, which are suffused with American culture. KPMG has also audited us annually for over 10 years. If you want to know about our financial position, just check the reports for the past 10-plus years stored at KPMG.

We have been through so much over the past three decades and are used to difficulties. So I never saw being under the Obama administration as a hardship. For us, the Trump administration is also just a motivator that has forced us out of our complacency. To stay afloat, we need to row intensely. Our hard efforts have driven up revenue and profits. If we have higher profits at the end of the year, despite the fact that we are being targeted, I am worried about how the world will perceive us. Thanks to our employees' increased efforts, we are seeing much better results. So I don't feel like there is a true confrontation with the US.

3、Matt Murray：既然是这样，您又怎样解释美国现在对华为展现出的敌意？考虑到美国政府现在对华为的态度，您觉得华为在历史上有哪些事情是应该做而没有做的呢？

Matt Murray: Let me try again, how do you explain American hostility then? And for all you have been done, is there more in hindsight that you might have done or should have done given how the US government now seems to view Huawei?

任正非：我认为，主要还是美国对我们缺乏了解。美国公司也是从小变大的，在我们后面成立的公司有亚马逊、谷歌、Facebook……，它们现在的发展比我们还厉害。我们还跟在他们的后面。我们比较保守一点，成长时间比它们长。

总而言之，美国公司走的道路是商业模式创新与技术创新兼容的高水平道路，在产品还没有完全成长起来时，已经构建了一个世界级、全球化的商业计划。而我们公司因为眼界低，从山沟沟里出来的，没有见过世面，都是从技术创新开始做，研发人员都自认为自己是天之骄子，等产品出来才想到做商业模式，发展速度相比美国公司就慢一些。至今为止，我们公司还是没有商业领袖，还只是在技术创新，经常是产品做出来一、两年了，还不知道怎么卖。现在我们学习得还不够，都是先想着怎么做产品，做出来才会想怎么卖。

I think their hostility is largely because they do not know enough about Huawei. Many big US companies started small. Companies like Amazon, Google, and Facebook were founded after us but grew faster. We were a bit conservative, so we have not grown as fast as them and need more time to grow.

If we look at the history of US companies, they have adopted an excellent approach that combines business model innovation with technological innovation, meaning they have a global business plan even before their products are fully developed. However, Huawei was not as visionary. We started in rural areas, and our horizons were not as broad as US companies'. We started with technological innovation, and our R&D staff were extremely confident in themselves. We only started developing our business model once our products were there. As a result, our growth has been slower than US companies' and that's why we do not have real business leaders within Huawei, even today.

We are still focusing on technological innovation, and we often don't know how to sell products even one or two years after they are developed. So we still have a lot to learn. We still develop products first, and then think about how to sell them.

4、Matt Murray：现在华为业务遍及170多个国家和地区。您们在大部分国家和地区都是领先的电信设备提供商。另外，华为在5G领域已经取得了领先地位。在您看来，是不是华为的成功让美国感受到了威胁？

But you are now in more than 170 countries and regions, you are a leading supplier in most of those countries and regions, and you're ahead on 5G as we've seen. Do you threaten the US because of your success? What do you think?

任正非：我认为，美国不会因为这个问题感到对它有威胁，因为美国科技创新的能力非常强。你们可以去华为心声社区看一看，昨天我们还发表了一篇文章，讲美国这一百年来到底有多少发明，讲美国多么伟大。美国有极好的创新机制，不会因为某项技术短时间落后一点就感到压力。我也看到罗斯部长在印度讲话中提到“美国用三年时间就可以领先和超越华为”，我相信完全有可能。

美国在5G上有判断失误的问题。美国选择6G，认为6G带宽更宽、意义更大，美国觉得这个东西应该很好。它选择了毫米波的高频段，它认为5G时代不会这么快到来，6G覆盖距离短的理论与技术问题还有时间突破，没有想到5G十年就做出来了。华为选择的中频段，也有赌博成份。当时全世界大部分国家都没有走中频段，都选高频段，因为他们认为5G不会那么快投产，没想到十年时间，5G从土耳其Arikan教授的一篇数学论文会发展成一个产业。他们认为世界的发展会缓慢一点，6G还会有机会突破。如果能解决覆盖发射距离的理论发现和技术创新问题，6G肯定是最好的，但是现在理论发明还没有，技术创造还没有突破（相控传送体积大），所以6G只能做到很宽的带宽，传输距离非常短，还没有达到实用化的时候，5G已经开始在世界普及。

所以，不是美国真正输给华为，而是选择时押错宝了，我们押的是厘米波，他押的是毫米波。从这点来说，如果美国转过来追赶，我们相信它是没有问题的，不会因为华为短时间领先就要打我们一棒。

 I didn't think the US would feel threatened by this. They are very strong when it comes to scientific and technological innovation. We published an article yesterday outlining the inventions made by the US over the last 100 years and commending the US as a great country. You could go to our internal messaging board, Xinsheng Community, to have a look.

The US has a very strong mechanism for technological innovation, and I don't think they will be stressed about lagging behind in a certain technology for a short while. I saw the remarks Commerce Secretary Ross recently made in India. He said the US can catch up with and overtake Huawei in three years. I believe it's totally possible.

The US has made the wrong call on 5G. They went directly for 6G because they thought it had higher bandwidth and would be more valuable. They went for high-frequency bands for millimeter waves. They had not thought that 5G would come so quickly, and instead thought that they had enough time to make breakthroughs on the theories and technologies that address the short coverage distances for 6G. But 5G was commercialized in less than 10 years.

Huawei chose intermediate-frequency bands. This was actually also a bet for us. Most countries did not choose intermediate-frequency bands at the time, and instead went for high-frequency bands because they didn't think 5G could be commercialized so quickly.

They didn't realize the mathematical paper from Turkish professor Erdal Arikan would mean that 5G could create an industry in less than 10 years. They thought that they could make breakthroughs with 6G if the development of 5G was slower. When more transmission distance theories are developed and technological innovations are made, 6G will definitely be superior.

However, these theoretical and technological breakthroughs have yet to be made, so 6G just means higher bandwidth. But since transmission distance is very short, commercialization is still not possible. All the while, a wide rollout of 5G has started around the world.

So I don't think the US has lost to Huawei. They just made the wrong bet in the first place. Huawei bet on centimeter wave technology while the US bet on millimeter wave. If the US changes their direction, I believe they could soon catch up with Huawei, and I don't think they would attack us simply because we pulled ahead for a bit.

5、《华尔街日报》记者Dan Strumpf：我的问题和美国与华为之间的长期合作与对抗有关。在今年的采访中，您多次提到可以把华为的5G技术许可给一家西方公司，更具体地说，是一家美国公司。您能否向我们介绍一下目前的进展？有没有美国公司表现出这方面的兴趣？华为有没有聘请投资银行或者其他中介机构帮忙出售这项技术？您认为5G技术许可这件事情将如何发展？

Dan Strumpf, Reporter, The Wall Street Journal: Thanks a lot, Mr. Ren, for meeting with us again. We really appreciate your time. On the topic of the US and Huawei and your long history of both cooperation and confrontation, you've talked, quite a number of times this year, about the idea of selling the licenses of your 5G technology to a Western, but specifically an American company. Could you give us an idea of how that process is going? Have you had any interest from any American buyers? Have you hired any investment banks or intermediaries to help you try to sell that technology? Where do you see this process going?

任正非：首先，我们是真心诚意地许可给美国公司，而不是玩什么花招。为什么我们希望美国公司强大起来？因为这样世界可以构筑三角平衡，如果美国缺失5G技术，我们可能长期有麻烦，欧洲也会麻烦。因此，我们是真心诚意许可，并且许可是全面的，它要什么，我们就给什么，不会有所保留。许可以后，我们可以并肩前进，相信我们还是可以跑得快的。这是我们的动机和目的。

第二，美国不能跃过5G去走6G，通信行业每一步都要走，跨越式地跳过这步以后，后面的路可能会有很大问题。如果从头再做起来，需要漫长的时间。美国最多的是钱，我们最大问题是没钱，美国给了我们钱获得我们的许可，我们可以在5G及新技术上更大开发、更快前进。美国有了基础以后，可以发展更快，因为美国有庞大的科学技术基础。开展和平发展与竞争。

目前还没有任何美国公司与我们接触，如果有了需求，我们才会找投资银行帮助我们做交易。

First, we are completely sincere in our offer to license our 5G technology to the US and are not playing tricks. Why do we want US companies to become stronger? Because the world will be more balanced with three 5G "super powers". If the US lacked 5G, we would face longstanding difficulties and Europe would also find itself in trouble. Therefore, we really hope to license all of our 5G to the US. We will give the US whatever it wants and will not withhold anything. After licensing, we can move forward side by side with the US, and I believe we can still outrun others. This is our motivation and purpose for licensing 5G.

Second, the US cannot bypass 5G and jump directly to 6G. Every step counts in the communications sector. If one leapfrogs one step, they may encounter huge problems down the road. It would take a long time to develop technologies from scratch. The US has a lot of money, and the biggest challenge for Huawei is that we lack money. If the US gives us money to obtain our 5G license, we can use that money to fund our research and development of 5G and other new technologies and make bolder steps forward. And the US can use our technology to grow faster because they have already established a huge foundation of science and technology. We can then pursue peaceful development and competition.

No US companies have approached us yet. Once there is a need from a US company, we will ask investment banks to help with our deal.

Matt Murray：美国公司或者中介机构可以给你们打电话？

They can call you, right?

任正非：是的，但是没有啊。是不是他们也害怕？害怕与我们接触有嫌疑。

Yes, but they haven't yet. Perhaps they are afraid too? Afraid of being suspected if they engage with us?

Dan Strumpf：您觉得为什么目前没有一家公司对此表现出兴趣呢？华为被公认为是5G方面最先进的公司。美国公司至少应该对这项交易表示感兴趣，但是为什么现在没有任何一家公司跟华为接触？ 

I would just follow up and ask, why do you think no companies have come forth to take you up on this offer? Huawei is widely seen as the most advanced company offering 5G technology. It seems like an opportunity that companies should at least express they are interested in, but it sounds like no one is coming forward at all?

任正非：我也不清楚他们为什么不接触。可能是担心有政治上的嫌疑，跟华为接触后被怀疑。或者是他们不想做这个市场，不一定有这个需求。我们也不能主动去联系，美国实体清单禁止我们与美国企业接触。

I don't know why either. They may be afraid of political suspicions if they engage with Huawei. Or perhaps they don't want to enter this market, so they don't necessarily have this need. We cannot proactively reach out to US companies because the Entity List prevents us from doing so.

6、Matt Murray：在华为发展历程中面临了很多关于盗窃的指控，其中包括思科和CNEX等大公司以及个人的指控。您可能也知道，今年《华尔街日报》有过一篇这方面的报道。为什么这样的指控一直存在？华为有没有解决或者曾经解决过在技术窃取方面面临的挑战？

I have to ask, actually, as you know, throughout the history of Huawei, there have been allegations of theft from big companies, from individuals, from Cisco to CNEX. We wrote about it this year, as you probably know. Why have they been so persistent over so many years? And have there ever been any challenges at the company, even in the past, that have been addressed about theft?

任正非：指控不一定就是事实，特朗普遭受的指控比我们还多。我们从来都是尊重第三方知识产权，美国有很多大公司每年都给我们交非常多的知识产权费，但我们交给美国公司的知识产权费更多。我们这么多年累计收了14亿美元的专利费，付出了60多亿美元左右的知识产权费。而且，华为的科研经费每年投入150-200亿美元左右，研发人员将近八、九万人，领先世界不可能靠偷来的。好人也会蒙受指责，我们还是相信美国法庭的判决。

Allegations are not necessarily facts. Trump has received more allegations than us. We have always respected the intellectual property (IP) of third parties. Many large US companies pay large sums in IP royalties to us every year, but we pay more to them. Over the years, we have received 1.4 billion US dollars of patent fees but paid more than six billion US dollars of IP royalties. In addition, Huawei invests about 15 to 20 billion US dollars in research and development each year, and we have over 80,000 R&D staff. We are not a world leader because of stealing. A good person can still face criticisms. We still believe in decisions made by the US courts.

7、《华尔街日报》记者Eva Dou：前一段时间去过您的老家贵州，想了解一下您小时候的背景和成长的历史。我父母是山东济南人，在济南趵突泉附近。

Eva Dou, Reporter, The Wall Street Journal: We recently went to your hometown in Guizhou, and we wanted to know more about your background and your experiences. My parents are from Jinan, Shandong. They lived near the Baotu Spring.

任正非：我小时候生活的地方很闭塞，对我的成长没有多大影响，就是顽皮一些，让天性没有受到压抑。我不可能在那种闭塞的环境里产生对我后半生多大影响的抱负。我到大学后才有图书馆，如饥似渴地广泛阅读，也对我的人生没有多大影响，因为家庭政治条件不好，不会有大的前途，不悲观就不错了。

70年代末我的部队在济南，当年在济南郊区窑头，山东师范学院上去一点，我们算半个老乡。

The place where I grew up was rather closed off, and had little impact on my growth. I was a little naughty when I was a child, and grew up free of many restraints. It was impossible for me to develop high aspirations for the latter half of my life in such a closed-off environment. And I had access to a library only after I was admitted to university, so I read extensively, like it was a hunger. That didn't have a big impact on my life either. Because the political background for my family was not good, there weren't great prospects for me. It was already good that I didn't develop pessimistic sentiments.

In the late 1970s, my old army unit was stationed on Yaotou Road in Jinan's suburbs, near Shandong Normal University. I feel like Jinan is partially my hometown as well.

Eva Dou：那个年代大家都是部队的，我家那个年代也有很多参加部队的，看您之前写的一些研究报道，看到济南这个字，1979年到1984年在济南00229部队，能否介绍一下那一段做的工作？正式的简历不太清楚前期的经历，1944年出生，一直跳来跳去，很多年不知道在哪里。

At that time, many people were in the army. Many members of my family joined the army as well. I was reading some articles you wrote when I saw the name Jinan. You were with Troop 00229 in Jinan from 1979 to 1984. Could you describe your work there? That experience wasn't talked about too much in your official biography. You were born in 1944 but the details after that are a little vague, and there are many years you have not written about in detail.

任正非：在辽阳化纤厂建设结束以后，国家决定搞十大工程。我们奉命调去建设仪征化纤厂，但是在队伍调遣过程中工程下马了，我们就停留在济南了。据说是中央有人批评这是十大洋跃进工程，因政治原因下马了。当时，我就留在济南机关，做了一个二十多人建筑研究所的副所长，研究建筑机械等东西。

After the construction of the Liao Yang Chemical Fiber Factory was finished, the Chinese government decided to initiate 10 big projects, and we were assigned to the construction of the Yi Zheng Chemical Fiber Factory. However, before our transfer went through, that project was terminated due to some political criticism from the central government surrounding these 10 big projects, so I stayed in Jinan. I was then appointed to be the deputy director of a construction research institute, leading a team of just over 20 people. We were responsible for researching machines used in construction.

Eva Dou：好像主要研究压力天平？

It seems that the research institute mainly focused on developing pressure balances.

任正非：我在辽阳用数学方法推导了一个仪器，用于化工自动控制系统。后来我在这个研究所允许我继续做延伸的研究实验，因为我那时是名人了，是英雄标杆，所以可以做一些与本部队无关的研究。但是不成功。

因为我那时年轻气盛，受到国家的重大表扬后，就不知天高地厚，提出了更高的难以实现的目标，又想梦想一定要达到，日夜加班。后来几年的研究都不成功，正好遇到大裁军，我被集体裁掉了，项目结束了，人也离开了，那五年实际上做了很多没用的事情。那时山东大学的计算机内存只有16K，怎么也算不出方程和实际的东西，最后不了了之。这段青春应该是虚度了。

I had used my background in mathematics to invent an apparatus for automatic chemical control systems in Liaoyang. While at that institute, I was allowed to continue my previous research, because I was a celebrity then and a heroic benchmark. That was why I could do some research irrelevant to my military unit. Unfortunately, my research proved to be unsuccessful.

When I was younger, I had received a high level of recognition from the government, so I became very ambitious and set even higher goals that were beyond my reach at the time. I was determined to achieve those goals and often worked overtime. However, the results of my research in later years were not satisfactory. That happened around the time when the government decided to downsize the army, so our project ended and I was forced to transfer to a civilian job. That project had lasted five years, and we hadn't created anything useful in that period. At that time, the computer in Shandong University was only 16 KB of memory, which wasn't enough for proper calculations. So we had to give up in the end. Looking back, I'd say we had wasted those years.

Eva Dou：那时我老爸也在山东大学读书。

My father studied in Shandong University at that time.

任正非：我们很近，我们在山东师范学院往上一点，就是我的驻地窑头，我小孩读的小学就是马家沟小学。

We were not far from each other. Our unit was stationed nearby in Yaotou, near Shandong Normal University. My kids were enrolled in the Majiagou Primary School nearby.

Eva Dou：你最开始工作是不是在贵州011基地？你在那边主要做什么工作？

Didn't you start your career at the Guizhou 011 army base? What did you do there?

任正非：是的，在011工地，在那儿参加承建的建筑公司工作，做厂房建筑。

Yes. I worked in a construction company at the 011 army base, where I was involved in factory construction.

Eva Dou：您不是工程师吗？

But you were an engineer, right?

任正非：那时我连技术员都不是。那时大学生是“臭老九”，要被改造，接受工人农民再教育。我曾当了两年炊事员，后来当了几年工人，74年才调到东北；在部队过了一段时间才当了技术员；在粉碎四人帮以后，我才当上工程师。

I wasn't even a technician at that time. I was an intellectual, one of the "Nine Black Categories", so I had to undergo re-education. I was first a cook for two years. Then I was a worker for several years and was only transferred to Northeast China in 1974. After I had been with the army for a while, I became a technician. It was only after the Gang of Four was taken down that I finally became an engineer.

Eva Dou：贵州离越南非常近，那时美国在越南打仗，贵州那个年代部队不是也在开始建军队的通信设备吗？有参加吗？

Guizhou is close to Vietnam which was at war with the US back then. Guizhou was also developing military communications infrastructure at that time, wasn't it? Were you involved in that?

任正非：那时我与通信没有关系，纯粹是普通的建筑工人，与今天的农民工差不多；到了东北部队以后，我与通信也没有关系，在东北从事辽阳化纤总厂自动控制系统工程建设，是模拟的控制系统，就是使用比例、积分、微分方式控制的系统管理，和现在的通信计算机无关。自动控制是我在当炊事员和工人的时候开始自学的，到东北因为没人比我懂，这“半坛子水”得到使用。我到深圳创业后，才开始接触通信行业的。

What I did back then had nothing to do with communications. I was just an ordinary construction worker, just like today's migrant workers in cities. After I moved to the military in Northeast China, I worked in the Liao Yang Chemical Fiber Factory where I was responsible for building automation control systems. It was about simulation control systems, or proportional-integral-derivative (PID) controllers. This had nothing to do with either today's communications technology or computer science. I taught myself automation and control when I was a cook and worker. This turned out to be a useful skill when I moved to Northeast China, because I understood it better than anyone else there. I didn't enter the communications industry until I started my own business in Shenzhen.

8、Matt Murray：您刚才提到浪费了五年时间，也从事过不同的工作。后来是如何创立华为的？您是如何找到投资者并在您之前的基础上支持您创立这家公司的？

You talked about five years wasted and different jobs. How did you get from there to founding Huawei, and how did you find investors to back you and start the company based on the record you started?

任正非：大裁军以后，我们就是这个时代的弃儿。因为国家体制发生了翻天覆地的变化，从计划经济走向市场经济模式，我们并不知道转折意味着什么，就到深圳来了。对市场什么都不懂。我们到了深圳，每月工资200多元，当时团职干部200多元挺荣耀的，但一看打工妹都有500多元了。我们就要求国家把转业费发给我们，不要保留政治待遇和经济待遇了。国家给发了1800多元转业费，我们夫妻总共领了3000多元。后来我到国有企业工作，也是什么都不明白，没有经营好，做错了事，最后只能离开这家国有企业。

当时，要么出国，要么在国内干，我们家里人不想出国，就留下了。刚好深圳市在1987年出了一个文件，87（18）文，允许个人创办民营科技企业，我们就冒险做了民营科技这行。当时注册公司需要2万元人民币注册资本、五个股东，我就找了另五个人集资2万1千元，实际还是我一个人开始干。后来，那五个人要求退出公司，就跟我们打官司，退了很多钱拿走。这个公司变成我一个人的，我有权力把股份分给大家，就形成今天员工持股的模式。

当年如果不分股份给大家，我们可能就是一个小公司，干一干就散了，重新又去干一个行业。怎么知道我不会去搞房地产呢？我最应该的是去搞房地产，不应该搞通信，这么傻，又苦又累又不赚钱。那五个人退股的法庭判决书还在档案室，你们可以去看看原始的档案。

China downsized its military on a large scale, leaving a lot of us feeling completely out of step with the times. The country was undergoing a fundamental change in its economic system, moving from a planned economy to a market economy. We had no idea what that transition meant, and we just came to Shenzhen. We knew nothing about the market economy, either. The monthly pay for jobs at the regimental-commander level was over 200 yuan, which I thought was a decent pay. Then I found out that the average salary for ordinary workers in Shenzhen was more than 500 yuan. So, we asked for compensation from the government for the demobilization without needing to retain the political and economic benefits. The compensation was about 1,800 yuan for each, and my ex-wife and I got more than 3,000 yuan in total. I then worked in a state-owned enterprise (SOE) in Shenzhen. I didn't know much about how SOEs worked and I didn't do a good job there. I made some mistakes, so I had to leave.

I was then left with two options: going abroad or staying in China. My family didn't want to go abroad, so we stayed. This was in 1987, around the time when the Shenzhen government published a document (Doc. No. 1987 [18]) allowing private tech companies to be established. So, I took the risky move to establish a private tech company. You had to have 20,000 yuan in registered capital and at least five shareholders to start a company. So I raised 21,000 yuan with five other investors and founded the company. Though there were six of us, I was the one who actually started the company. Later, the other five investors decided to withdraw from the company and we ended up going to court to settle this. In the end, they all withdrew with a lot of money in compensation. At that point, the company was wholly owned by me, so I had the freedom to distribute the shares to our employees. That's how the employee ownership structure we have today came about.

If I hadn't distributed shares to employees, Huawei might have remained a small company and might not even have survived this long. Maybe then I would have tried my luck with other sectors such as real estate. We'll never know. Maybe real estate would have been the best choice. I shouldn't have set foot in communications business. It takes a lot of hard work and is not actually that lucrative.

We still have the court rulings pertaining to the withdrawal of the five other investors. They're in the shareholder registry room. You can take a look at the original file if you're interested.

Dan Strumpf：您是怎么认识帮助您创立华为的五个投资人的？我们在华为股权室看到他们五个人的名字，发现他们的背景是非常多样化的。您是怎么认识他们的？是您的朋友还是军队的熟人？

 Just a follow-up question on that, Mr. Ren. How did you know the five individuals that helped you found Huawei? We've seen their names in your shareholder registry room. They seem to have very diverse backgrounds. How did you come to know them? Are they old friends of yours? Old friends from the military? Who are they?

任正非：过去不认识，来深圳以后才认识的。创立公司时，对公司拥有股权、拥有未来还完全没有想象，就是为了凑够这么多人、筹够这么多钱，他们没有在公司上过一天班。如果我们关系很好，就不会分家，他们也会到公司来上班。

华为公司前十几年完全是风雨飘摇，就如蜡烛火一样摇摇晃晃快要熄灭的那种感觉，天天处在危机和生存挣扎状态，大多数人都是没有信心的。我没有退路，没有信心也要有信心。还有一些傻傻的人跟着我们，相信我给他们讲的话，以为真能够实现。大家都相信，抱成一团，果然实现了。今天很多人很有钱，不是投机，而是太傻了跟着跑，没有离开。

No. I hadn't known them before I came to Shenzhen. And actually, when I founded Huawei, I wasn't thinking about company ownership or the future of the company. To start the company, I had to raise a certain amount of capital and bring together a certain number of investors. These five people have never worked a single day at Huawei. If I'd had a closer relationship with them, maybe they wouldn't have cashed out so early; they might have come to work at Huawei.

In Huawei's first 10-plus years, we went through thick and thin. We were like a candle that was about to be blown out. Every day, we were struggling to survive through crises. Most people had no confidence in our company, but there was no turning back for me. I had to move on, full of confidence.

Some people, who seemed unwise to some, chose to stick with us. They believed what I told them would become a reality some day. We worked together towards that vision, and in the end it really became a reality. Today many of our employees are very rich. The reason is not that they were speculative, but that they were just not wise enough and chose not to leave.

9、Dan Strumpf：顺着时间轴往后，1992年您曾经访问美国。此行从纽约开始，在访问硅谷公司后结束了您的这次行程。那次美国之行您学到了什么？当时为什么要去美国？是谁组织了那次行程？今天的美国和您当时看到的美国是否已经有所不同？

 Mr. Ren, I wanted to ask you about a later time at Huawei but still in its earlier days. In 1992, you took a long cross-country road trip in the US, starting in New York, and I believe, ending in Silicon Valley with American companies at that time. Tell us what you learned from that trip. Why did you take that trip, and who organized it? And do you feel the US is a different place today than it was then?

任正非：那次是美国波士顿一家卖电源模块的CP公司邀请我们去考察，因为我们要买它的电源模块。我们很好奇，想看一看美国，因为我们从来不知道美国是什么样。我们以为美国是高消费，所以带了很多美元现金，那时中国还没有信用卡。后来我们发现美国什么东西都便宜，很长时间都不理解，才觉得现金带着是负担。最初一起去的有一个人吵着要管钱，就把钱大部分给他了，结果后来他嫌钱装在口袋太重，求大家花他的钱。所以对美国的第一个印象是，美国的东西怎么会这么便宜。

当时我们乘坐灰狗巴士走天下，巴士怎么会这么漂亮？我们坐着灰狗巴士在高速公路飞驰的时候，觉得中国永远不可能有这么好的车了，中国永远不会发展到像有灰狗巴士这种状况。我们坐火车到了硅谷，也不知道硅谷在哪儿，问别人，没有一个人知道硅谷为何物，因为“硅谷”是中国人喊的，外国人不知道。结果莫名其妙下了车，问一个出租车司机，刚好是圣塔克拉拉，就是“硅谷”。到了硅谷，我们找不到地方可参观，也找不到人，好不容易认识一个人钟培峰，想办法去交流参观一下，因为我们还要买一些器件。

我们看到美国的先进、美国的伟大，很震惊。美国公司到底有多大？不知道。我们曾租了一个出租车，穿过IBM做存储器的一个厂，给出租车司机讲“绝对不能转弯，一定要直走，打表，看里程多少”，走了直径是6公里后，司机迷路了，才兜出来。我们感慨美国的工厂这么大，感慨至今。今天我们仍然是这样崇拜美国，没有改变。不因为美国打我们，就不爱美国了，这是两回事。

A Boston-based company named CP, which sold power modules, invited us to visit them. We wanted to buy their power modules.

We were curious because we didn't know what the US was like. We'd thought things were very expensive there, so we took a lot of cash in US dollars with us. You couldn't get credit cards in China at the time. After we arrived, however, it turned out things were very cheap and we didn't understand why. Cash started to feel like a bit of a burden.

Funny story. One guy in our team offered to take care of our cash, so we gave most of it to him, but later he complained that his pockets were weighing him down and begged us to spend the money. So our first impression of the US was that everything was surprisingly cheap.

While we were taking a Greyhound bus, we marveled at how beautiful the bus was. While the bus was running fast on the expressway, we were thinking that China would never have such beautiful buses and never be developed to this level.

We then took a train to Silicon Valley, but we didn't know where it exactly was. We asked people around us, but no one knew the name, because we only knew it as "Gui gu" which is how Chinese people know it. We got off the train not really sure where we were. We asked a local taxi driver and he said we were in Santa Clara, which is actually where Silicon Valley is located. After arriving at Silicon Valley, we couldn't find anywhere to visit and we didn't know anybody. Eventually, we found a guy named Zhong Peifeng who could show us around because we needed to buy some components.

We were shocked by how great and advanced the US was. As we were wondering about how large US companies were, we took a taxi and traveled around the IBM campus which produced memory back then. We wanted to know how big that campus was, so we asked the driver to just go straight and not make any turns. We would check the mileage shown on the meter. After we reached the campus, the taxi managed another six kilometers before the driver got lost. We marveled at how large US factories were. We still feel the same now.

Even today, we still admire the US. This has never changed, not even in the face of their campaign against Huawei.

10、Matt Murray：您可能也知道，《华尔街日报》今年早些时候发布了一篇报道，称华为在非洲有个项目是帮助几个非洲国家的政府监视政治对手。该项目是智慧城市项目的一部分。您如何评价这一项目？这个项目是否还在进行？报道出来之后，当地政府作何回应？

As you know probably, The Wall Street Journal reported earlier this year on a Huawei program in Africa that helped a couple of governments spy on opposition political figures. It was part of the smart cities program. Can you comment on that program? Is it something Huawei is still doing? What have you heard since that report came out from governments around the world?

任正非：首先，这不是事实，《华尔街日报》要承担责任。我们已经给你们出了律师函。《华尔街日报》是一家伟大的报纸，你们要反思，你们的信息来源是否真实？没有这回事，因此当地也没有什么反应。

First of all, what that report said was not true. You at The Wall Street Journal should be taking responsibility for your reporting. We've had our lawyers send you a letter, but I still believe The Wall Street Journal is a great news agency. You should be more conscious of whether what you report is true or not. What you said in that report didn't happen, so there was never any real response to the accusations in those countries you claimed involved.

11、Eva Dou：我知道您一直喜欢欧洲的文化。

I heard that you really like European culture.

任正非：不是，我最喜欢美国的文化，很奔放、很创新，我是一个不安份的人，喜欢美国年轻人的疯狂，他们的好大喜功，我太太说我，你们是一丘之貉。欧洲保守一点，舒服了一点，我家人非常喜欢欧洲，我太太今天还在米兰。

Not really. I like American culture most, which is very enterprising and innovative. I'm the type of person that is not satisfied with the status quo. I really admire the passion and ambition of young Americans. They like to do grandiose things to impress people. My wife said I am of the same type. Europe has a more conservative culture and more relaxed lifestyle. My family likes Europe very much. My wife is currently in Milan.

Eva Dou：您知道HBO有一个关于电信行业的电视剧吗？

Do you know HBO has a TV series about the telecom industry?

任正非：不知道。

No, I didn't.

Eva Dou：您可以看一下，这是关于电信行业的电视剧，讲的是关于西班牙国王和美国Calvin Coolidge的第一次跨洋通话，也是西班牙政府支持的，原因也是监控。那时西班牙政府也想监控很多他们的敌人，就支持了这个公司。历史上一直是这样的。一个国家想支持一个电信行业，不就是因为监控吗？中国难道不也一样吗？华为公司在这种历史和政治环境下怎么运营？

I recommend you watch it. This TV series is about the telecom industry, telling a story about the first transatlantic phone call between the King of Spain and the US President Calvin Coolidge. At that time, the Spanish government supported Telefónica because they wanted to spy on their enemies. As history shows, states often support the telecom industry because they want to spy on others, don't they? Is it like that in China? How will Huawei operate in today's historical and political environment?

任正非：汽车制造厂把汽车卖给了用户，车里装什么货物是司机说了算，汽车厂并不知道装什么货物。我们就像汽车制造厂一样，卖给电信运营商是裸设备，网络是由电信运营商管理，我们并不管理这个设备，根本不知道电信运营商是如何运作的。电信运营商做的是管道，疏通信息流，我们做的是管道外面的铁皮，铁皮能知道什么呢？

Automobile manufacturers only sell their trucks to their customers. It is the drivers who decide what goods they want to put in the trucks. Manufacturers don't know anything about it. Just like automobile manufacturers, we only sell equipment. Networks are managed by telecom carriers, and we don't manage the equipment after selling it. We have no idea how carriers operate that equipment. Carriers build pipes and ensure information flows smoothly through the pipes, while we produce the iron sheets on top of the pipes. What could we do with iron sheets?

12、Matt Murray：我知道这是敏感事件，但华为已经成为了一家拥有十几万员工的大型全球化公司。您有信心说在全球各地的华为员工都没有参与到我们所报道的活动当中吗？

I understand the sensitivity, but you have become a large global company with hundreds of thousands of employees. Can you be fully confident that there are no employees affiliated with Huawei anywhere engaging in activities like those we reported?

任正非：我们有内外合规的监管系统，有道德遵从委员会，在管住员工要符合公司对商业行为的要求。我们不允许违规的事情发生，如果谁有这样的事情，他会受到严处。

Our internal and external compliance systems and Committee of Ethics and Compliance ensure our employees comply with our Employee Business Conduct Guidelines (BCG). We don't allow for violations. If there were any employees that did such a thing, they would be severely punished.

13、《华尔街日报》亚洲商业编辑Neil Western：您刚才说华为是卖铁皮的，事实可能不仅如此。因为华为在网络安全上投入了大量资金，而且过去几年在这方面的投资仍在不断增加。特别是“斯诺登事件”之后，大家知道美国国家安全局利用华为的设备进行窃听。从您的角度来看，威胁来自哪里？华为应如何预防这些威胁？

Neil Western, Asia Business Editor, The Wall Street Journal: On the point of selling iron sheets, I don't think that's strictly true since you spend a lot of money on cyber security and that money has been increasing over the years. Particularly since Edward Snowden revealed a few years back that the NSA has been able to use Huawei equipment to listen in on people. So where do you see the threat and how can you prevent that threat, from Huawei's point of view?

任正非：如果我们在网络安全设计上不投入力量，运营商可能就不会购买我们的设备，很多国家会禁止我们进入市场；如果我们不遵守GDPR，就不能进入欧洲。所以，网络安全、用户隐私保护都成为商品中很重要的一环。就像汽车一样，所有汽车都是四个轮子，名牌汽车比普通汽车贵一点，就是因为它在安全保护上投入更大，给人提供更大的安全保障。如果我们不能满足时代的要求，一是我们不可能销售，二是不可能卖好一些的价格，因此我们必须满足客户这方面要求。网络是掌握在运营商手里的，运营商是受主权国家控制的，我们只是一个卖“卡车”的公司。

 If we didn't invest in cyber security design, carriers wouldn't be willing to buy our equipment and many countries would ban us from their markets. If we didn't comply with GDPR, it would have been impossible for us to establish a presence in Europe. Cyber security and user privacy have become integral to all commodities.

It's a lot like a car. All cars have four wheels, so why are big brands usually more expensive? Because they are safer.

I think this is a requirement that all companies today have to follow. Otherwise, it's going to be difficult to sell, not to mention selling at good prices. That's why we must meet customer requirements for security.

Networks are owned by carriers, who are subject to the laws and regulations of the countries in which they operate. Huawei is no different to companies selling trucks.

14、Dan Strumpf：Matt刚才也提到，华为发展到今天已经是有着十几万员工、业务遍及全球的公司。面向未来，华为在管理方面面临的最大挑战是什么？未来您真正退出华为舞台后，您希望华为成为一家怎样的公司？

 I want to ask you about the future. Huawei has grown into, as Matt said, a company with hundreds of thousands of employees. It's all over the world. What are the biggest management challenges facing Huawei as it advances into the future? And what are the biggest challenges that will face the company in the future after you step down? And what would you like the company to look like after you step down?

任正非：华为公司三十年来从小公司走向大公司，走的是中央集权管理的道路。这样的做法会使机关总部越来越庞大、越来越官僚主义，那么公司迟早会由于不堪重负而垮掉。我们阿根廷会议叫“合同在代表处审结的试点会议”，改革的要点就是把决策权力交到最前方，逐渐让前方的人员职级、能力都得到很大幅度的提升。如果前端确实有很多能担负起责任的高级干部，那么往公司后端的流程就可以大幅度缩短，机关就不需要这么多干部。机关就会精简，减少官僚主义，减轻供养负担。为在代表处完成合同审结这样的改革，我们计划用五年或更长的时间来改变。机关会变小，办公室里没有那么多高级干部，多数是一些职员。这样把顶上重重的帽子卸下来，华为公司的管理倒转180度，就会获得新生。

这是向美国学习的。美国军队就是这样，到五角大楼的人可能没有前途了，到前线的升官很快。我们也要走这条道路，否则谁愿意到艰苦地区去奋斗？

Over the past 30 years, Huawei has grown from a small company into what we are today. We have stuck to the centralized management model throughout. Because of this, our HQ has become overstaffed and increasingly bureaucratic. If that continues, sooner or later, the company will be overwhelmed and may even collapse.

We held a meeting in Argentina discussing the pilot project for contract approvals at representative offices. One of the key objectives of this project is to delegate decision-making authority to the people who are closest to our customers, and improve the personal grades and capabilities of people in the field.

If many senior managers who really dare to shoulder responsibilities work in field offices, then the processes in back-end offices at the company will be greatly simplified. And we don't necessarily need as many managers as we currently have at HQ. This way, our HQ will become streamlined and less bureaucratic, and the burden of supporting so many staff at HQ will be reduced. We plan to complete the transformation and enable contract approvals at representative offices within around five years.

Then, we will have a smaller HQ. There won't be many senior executives sitting in the office in the future. Most of the people at HQ will be ordinary staff. It's like removing a heavy hat that we used to wear. Our management system has been reversed and turned upside down so as to revitalize our company.

This is something we've learned from the US. This is the practice adopted by the US military. People assigned to the Pentagon may not necessarily have a bright future, while people working in the field may get promoted much faster. It's going to be the same at Huawei. Otherwise, who would be motivated to work in hardship regions?

Matt Murray：您希望未来华为的员工都不待在深圳？

So you don't want anybody to be assigned here in Shenzhen?

任正非：是，现在非洲工作的员工虽然价值创造没有广州的员工大，但是他们的工资待遇是广州员工的数倍。

Take our employees working in Africa, for example. The value they create in dollar terms is not as high as those here in Guangdong province, but they are paid several times more than the people working in Guangdong.

15、Matt Murray：像华为这样的公司，要找一个能替代创始人的人难度有多大？您提到跟美国公司类比，许多美国公司要做到这一点是非常难的，不知道华为怎么样？

Can any one person replace the founder at a company like this? And I ask because you mentioned American companies and that's a difficult task to pull off in many American companies.

任正非：有些美国公司之所以失败，是因为把命运系在一个人身上。他的安全关系股市价值，他们走哪里，认为不能坐民航机，因为民航机不安全；还要带保镖，因为他的“脑袋”就是华尔街的钱，“脑袋”没有了，华尔街就垮了。

在我们公司，我实际是一个傀儡，我在与不在对公司没有那么大影响。当年我们向IBM学习管理变革时，IBM顾问跟我讲“管理变革最终就是把你“杀”掉，让你没有权力，你有没有这个决心？”我说我们有。十几年内，IBM数百位专家在这里帮助我们变革，华为今天走成这样，IBM给我们奠定了很重要的组织结构和管理基础。

权力到哪里去了？按流程配置了，反而基层干部权力很大。比如，服务员权力大，说“要瓶可乐”，他们就可以拿瓶可乐来；我要瓶可乐，没有流程支撑，只得自己掏钱。所以，我们向西方学习变革中最成功的一条是我虚位了，下面有各种组织，他们都被赋予了不同权力在循环着，谁都会挑起公司发展的担子来。我们现在把权力的改革倒过来，让基层更有权力，如果这点稳定下来，后继者无法重新改回中央集权。因此，在相当长时间内会比较稳定。

A reason that some American companies didn't work out is that they tied the company's destiny to one single person. Then the safety of executives in that kind of position is tightly linked with the company's stock value. So they can't take commercial flights because they think it's not safe enough, and they need to take bodyguards with them wherever they go. People like this are closely tied up in the interests of people on Wall Street. If one of these executives die, it can have a significant impact on Wall Street.

But at Huawei, I am more of a figure head. Whether or not I work in the company doesn't have a big impact on its operations. Years ago, when we wanted to initiate a management transformation, we turned to IBM for advice. IBM's consultants told me that the ultimate goal of the transformation would be to get rid of me, taking away all the authority I might have. They asked me whether I was willing to do that and I told them I was.

Over the last 10-plus years, several hundred experts from IBM have helped Huawei with our management transformation. They have laid a solid foundation for Huawei's organizational structure and management, helping make the company what it is today.

Then where has the authority gone? It is actually embedded in processes. As a result, managers at lower levels have relatively strong authority. For example, a waiter can get a bottle of cola when they want. If I want a bottle but don't have a corresponding e-flow, then I'll have to pay for it.

Therefore, in this management transformation where we incorporated the lessons learned from Western companies, one of the most successful things we've done is leaving me only ceremonial authority. Meanwhile, different parts of the organization have been given different types of authority which flows throughout the organization in a closed loop. That way, whoever takes those positions can shoulder the responsibility to support Huawei's operations.

We are trying to reverse the authority structure within Huawei and give more authority to employees at lower levels in the hierarchy. If this new structure stabilizes, it will be very difficult for future successors to change it back into a centralized one. I believe this will ensure stability at Huawei for a long time.

16、《华尔街日报》中国分社社长郑子扬：您刚才提到华为结构的调整，阿根廷会议应该是重要的一环。您在听说女儿被捕后，还是决定去阿根廷参加会议。这个会议对华为来说到底有多重要？因为很多人会觉得在您女儿刚刚被逮捕的时候，您还是决定完成工作去参加会议，这似乎显得有些无情。

Jonathan Cheng, China Bureau Chief, The Wall Street Journal: You have talked about this change in the structure and the Argentina meeting was a big part of this. When you were hearing about your daughter's arrest, you decided to go to Argentina anyway. Can you talk about how important this meeting was to you? Because a lot of people would look at this decision and feel that is rather callous to just go about your business and go to this meeting when your daughter had just been arrested.

任正非：阿根廷是经济困难的国家，通货膨胀非常严重。拉美地区部前任总裁已经开始对阿根廷代表处试点改革，他调回机关，换一个人接替时，我们没有更换改革试点。改革的名称叫“合同在代表处审结”，以前合同的关闭是由公司机关来决定的，现在授予代表处决策权、分配权，他们焕发了积极性。在前所未有的困难的外部环境中，这个代表处做出了很大成绩，证明试点改革是成功的。现在我们公司有二十多个代表处正在向他们学习推行改革，预计明年代表处会有一定规模化的铺开改革。在提高效率的基础上，人员会大规模减少，为了避免大规模裁员，我前几天签发了一个文件，在战略预备队预设了1万个编制、10亿美元预算，被精简的人员不是辞职走人，而是回到战略预备队来，经过学习、考试合格以后，有机会再往前派，再从事新项目，以此保证公司平稳的改革过渡，避免过度裁员。

Argentina is undergoing economic difficulties, including serious inflation. Huawei's former President of the Latin America Region had started a pilot transformation project in the Argentina Rep Office. When he was transferred back to HQ, we asked the new regional president to continue the project.

The goal was to approve contracts at the rep office. In the past, these decisions were made by HQ. But the transformation has given the rep office the authority to make such decisions and also to distribute incentives. That has substantially motivated the team. As a result, the business results of the Argentina Rep Office were very good despite the unprecedentedly challenging environment there. This proved the transformation was a success, so now more than 20 rep offices are learning from Argentina and implementing this same transformation. We also expect that a large number of rep offices will undertake similar transformations next year.

With this transformation, efficiency will be improved and a smaller workforce will be needed. Therefore, in order to avoid large-scale layoffs, I approved a document only a few days ago to allocate a budget of one billion US dollars and headcount of 10,000 to our Strategic Reserve as a buffer for those employees who will no longer be needed in their current positions. They won't be laid off. Instead, they'll be given training and take exams within our Strategic Reserve. After they become qualified for new responsibilities, they will have the chance to take up new positions and work on new projects. In this way, we want to ensure stable transformation and transition in the company, and avoid excessive layoffs.

17、Neil Western：你们为什么把会议地点选在离G20峰会如此近的地方？

Why did you choose to have that meeting in one of the areas that is so close to the G20 Summit?

任正非：这与G20峰会毫无关系，那个时候也订不上房。是在他们开完会走了以后我们再开的，是因为选择天气好的时候，错后了一些时间，在一偏避的风景区，一个叫“小小酒店”的高级酒店。

That meeting didn't have anything to do with the G20 Summit. Even if we wanted to have it next to the G20 venue, we'd never find enough hotel rooms. And our meeting was held sometime later, after the summit was over, because the weather was nicer then. We had it in an upscale hotel called Llao Llao Hotel in a remote, scenic part of the country.

Neil Western：那时候您女儿刚刚在温哥华被捕，那次的行程对您自己个人也是有风险的，当时您是怎么考虑的？

Once your daughter was arrested in Vancouver, what were your thoughts about the personal risk of being arrested making that journey?

任正非：肯定会有风险，如果我都怕风险，其他人怕不怕呢？还是要前进的，我从迪拜转机过去，迪拜还是很开放的。

It was risky, but if I acted scared, everyone else would too, right? I had to go ahead. I transferred flights in Dubai, which I think is very open.

Dan Strumpf：您当时和女儿联系了吗？阿根廷会议对您来说非常重要，您非去不可，但在会议之前几天您的女儿，也是华为的CFO，在加拿大被捕了。您当时有哪些想法？您觉得痛苦、悲伤吗？有没有联系孟晚舟？

Were you in communication with your daughter around that time? I mean this meeting was obviously so important for you to attend that you did it just days after the arrest of your daughter, who is also your CFO. What was going through your head at that time? Did you feel anguish and were you in touch with Meng Wanzhou?

任正非：忘了。当时我只想把会开好，好像没有其他想法。

I forgot what my thoughts were back then. I was only focused on the meeting going well.

Eva Dou：我们来聊聊孟晚舟的名字。您生日那天，她给您写了一封信，署名是“猪儿”。为什么取这个名字？

Talk a bit about Meng Wanzhou being called "Piggy". You can see it from the birthday letter she wrote to you the other day. Why that name?

任正非：因为她小时候很贪吃，长得胖乎乎的，像小猪一样，从小就叫她“猪”。我的小女儿因为喜欢毛茸茸的玩具猪，把自己称为“猪”，把我们叫做“猪爸”、“猪妈”。两个小孩都叫“猪”，以前我没有联想过，最近一想，怎么两个小孩都是“猪”呢？也是巧合。

 When she was young, Meng was a chubby girl who could really eat, just like a little pig, so she got the name Piggy.

My younger daughter also likes stuffed pig toys, and she calls herself Piggy too. She calls me Daddy Pig, and her mom Mommy Pig.

It's such a coincidence that both of my daughters call themselves Piggy. I had never thought about why they both do this. But it's just a coincidence.

18、Neil Western：在过去一年，华为的问题跟中美贸易战紧密地结合在一起。过去一年，您有没有和习近平主席或者中国的首席谈判代表刘鹤沟通，讨论怎么解决华为和美国的问题？

 Huawei's problems this year have been inextricably linked to the trade fight between the US and China. Could you describe what conversations you have had with President Xi Jinping or Negotiator Liu He over the past year, in terms of resolving Huawei's problems with the US?

任正非：中美贸易谈判与华为没有任何关系，因为华为在美国没有销售，关税加到1000%与我们也没有关系。所以，我也不会关心中美贸易谈判怎么样。

The trade talks between China and the US have nothing to do with Huawei because we have virtually no business dealings in the US, and it wouldn't matter to us if the tariff increased to 1,000%. The China-US trade talks are not something I'm concerned with.

Eva Dou：华为只是一个筹码。

Huawei is just a bargaining chip.

任正非：是它抓错了筹码。我们不会做筹码，因为我们没有美国也能生存下来。

If the US thinks we can be used as a bargaining chip, I'd say they probably have the wrong idea. Huawei will never be a bargaining chip, and we can live without relying on the US.

19、Matt Murray：我可以作证，因为我亲耳听到中国政府在讨论美国贸易谈判时，表示支持华为，还问了我和其他记者，为什么美国要给华为这么大压力，到底出现了什么问题。中国政府说这对华为不公平，他们的确表示支持华为。

I can attest as I heard directly that the government, in talking about the US trade talks, took up Huawei's cause and asked me and other journalists about other things, why is the US pressing Huawei, what is the issue? The Chinese government says it's unfair, and the government does take up Huawei's cause.

任正非：我不知道，我没有看到这个新闻。我们不需要美国撤销实体清单，实体清单永远保留好了，没有美国也可以生存很好。但是我们仍然会拥抱全球化的，美国公司供应器件，我们欢迎；如果没有供应，我们也能生存下来。

I didn't know that, and I haven't seen reports on that. We don't need the US to remove Huawei from the Entity List. They may as well keep us there forever because we'll be fine without them. Having said that, we will still embrace globalization and welcome any US company that supplies us. But even if they can't supply us, we can still survive.

Matt Murray：华为过去一年业务发展很好，而且一年以来，华为一直在跟美国的供应链进行脱钩。您现在也在说华为在可见的未来不需要美国。是不是说无论中美贸易谈判得怎么样，就算美国又对华为开放了，华为都不会和美国合作继续往前走？

To clarify, you've actually had a great year. You've been doing well and decoupling from the US supply chain through the year, and now you're saying Huawei doesn't need the US for the foreseeable future. Does Huawei plan, whatever happens in US-China relations, to proceed without the US, even if they become open to you again?

任正非：我们不会脱离全球化，会坚定不移拥抱全球化。当然，这只是我们的理想，如果美国不给我们提供这种条件，我们自己生存也没有问题。我们在5G基站、传送、接入、核心网已经可以没有美国零件了。当然我们还有一个版本是可以有美国零件的。

We'll never decouple from the rest of the world, and we'll continue to unswervingly embrace globalization. But this is only our ideal. If the US continues to block us from their supply chain, we'll have no problem surviving on our own. We are already not using American components in our 5G base stations, or our transmission, access, and core networks. Of course, we still have a version that can use American components.

20、Eva Dou：问一个历史问题。这些年欧美很多客户怀疑华为有没有政府背景或者政府投资。请问90年代华为曾有个子公司莫贝克，是各个省市的电信局投资的。过了几年华为业务好起来了就把他们踢出去了。之后一直就没有投资机构在华为。能不能解释一下为什么那个年代设有莫贝克，之后就关闭了？

There was a question related to Huawei's history. Some customers in Europe and the US are skeptical of Huawei's government background and investment coming from the government. I noticed that in the 1990s Huawei had a subsidiary called Mobeck, and it received a lot of investment from provincial and municipal companies of China's telecom bureau. Several years later, as Huawei's business grew, those companies were kicked out. Since then, there has been no investor in Huawei. So why was Mobeck set up in the first place? And why was it closed afterwards?

任正非：第一，莫贝克是一个电源公司，电源在我们公司是一个边缘化产品。第二，1992年开始，中国在金融上严格控制。为什么？80年代末期金融泡沫，中国通货膨胀非常严重，中央在1993年严格刹车，禁止银行贷款，贷款无论是否到期都要强制收回去。在那个时代，我们想把电源单独做卖掉挣点钱，也没有那么多钱发展。我们就找电信局三产公司来投资，第三产业也叫劳动服务公司，是一种集体所有制的公司，它是中国特定历史时期产生的“怪胎”，国有企业一些多余的人没地方去，就搞到劳动服务公司去，他们也需要一些机会。我们与他们集资把电源业务做大了，大概几年以后以7.5亿美元卖给了美国的艾默生公司，大家把钱分了，公司就散伙了。大家说还要继续干，我说我挑不起这个担子来，就散了。

 First, Mobeck was a power supply company, and power supplies were a marginal product for us. Second, in 1992 China started to impose stricter financial controls. Why? China suffered from very serious inflation after the financial bubble burst in the late 1980s, so the central government implemented stringent financial policies in 1993. Banks were prohibited from offering new loans. For the loans already issued, the banks were made to recover them, even if they weren't due yet. At that time, if we wanted to run a power supply company on our own and sell it later to earn some money, we wouldn't have enough money to develop Huawei. That was why we sought investment from "tertiary-industry" companies, or labor service companies, which were governed by the telecom bureaus. These companies were all under collective ownership, and they were unique to China during that specific period of history. Such companies were set up because there was no other place to go for staff that had been deemed redundant by state-owned enterprises at the time. So they were moved to these companies just to stay employed. A few years later, when the power supply company grew bigger with the raised funds, it was sold to a US company called Emerson for 750 million US dollars. That money was distributed to the staff and the company was disbanded. Actually, some of the staff wanted to continue running the company, but I said I couldn't shoulder that burden anymore, so it was disbanded.

21、Matt Murray：任先生，您在职业生涯中看到了很多的变化，现在5G部署也正在加快进行。展望一下未来十年的技术发展，5G之后还有什么？还有哪些技术会带来更具革命性的变化？

Mr. Ren, you've seen remarkable changes over your career. Your 5G rollout is now picking up steam dramatically. What will we see in the world of technology in the next 10 years? What comes after 5G and how many more transformative changes lie ahead in the next decade?

任正非：严格来说，不要说十年，三年以后这个社会是什么样子，我都想象不到。在几年前，我们能想象得到手机可以上网吗？乔布斯一个人就改变了这个世界。互联网真正发达起来，应该是因为手机无线上网。5G以后，最大的机会窗应该是人工智能，未来社会变成什么样子，还是不可想象的。你们参观了我们的生产线，只是用了很少部分的人工智能，在少量环节使用了人工智能，已经很少看到人了。再进一步，人会更少。

现在我们的生产系统引进了很多数学家、博士，工艺与质量管理，计划调度有了非常大的进步。所以，生产一系列活动都是24小时全排好的，机器人排队把指定物料在指定时间送到指定地点。连续生产已经有一定转变，十年以后整个世界发生什么转变，还不是搞得很清楚。

目前在生产过程中最大的人工智能运用是芯片的生产，规模和水平还在美国。如果其他工业也像芯片的生产方式，生产效率会大幅度提高。若果能人工智能方式生产的产业，会回归西方；不能人工智能方式生产的企业会寻找劳动力成本更低的国家。所以，要适应未来新的社会，每个国家最大问题是提高教育水平。

 I cannot imagine what society will look like in three years' time, not to mention 10 years. Not that many years back, very few people could have imagined that we would be able to use our mobile phones to browse the Internet. Steve Jobs, with his iPhone, basically changed the entire world. I think the Internet took off because the iPhone made wireless networks a reality. After 5G, I think the biggest opportunity will be centered on artificial intelligence (AI). What our society will look like is still something we cannot imagine at this point in time.

You've already had a tour of our production line. It is just a little intelligent. AI is only used in several steps along the production line. Yet still, you don't see many people. In the future, there will be even fewer people after AI is more widely deployed.

We have hired many mathematicians and doctorate degree holders for our production systems. Because of their efforts, we've seen great progress in the way we approach process and quality management, and planning and scheduling. Now, scheduling takes place in the IT system to ensure production activities are non-stop, 24/7. We also have robots delivering materials to specific locations at given times to ensure that we can keep feeding the production line. This is constant production. That is the change we are seeing in our own environment. But we still don't know what society will look like 10 years down the road.

Currently, AI is used to its utmost in chip production. Right now, the US is still the most advanced when it comes to scale or the level of sophistication for chip fabrication.

If other industries follow suit and introduce AI to production, productivity will significantly increase. Industries that can use AI for their production will be relocated to Western countries whereas other industries will seek to operate in countries with lower labor costs. Therefore, to adapt to future society, the most important job of every country is to improve the level of education.

Matt Murray：听您的逻辑是如果不提高教育水平，工人会被AI代替？

Because workers will be displaced by AI, Mr. Ren?

任正非：对，有高技能文化的人才能驾驭。

Yes. Or they will not be skilled or knowledgeable enough to manage AI systems.

Matt Murray：非常感谢您今天给这么多时间回答这么多的问题，感谢整个华为团队对我们的招待，我还想表扬一下口译员，今天写了太多字，手下来一定会抽筋。非常感谢你们接待我们。

Mr. Ren, thank you very much for your generosity and for taking all our questions. I want to thank your entire team for their hospitality and all they've done. I also want to commend the interpreter who is going to have a bad hand cramp. But thank you very much for hosting us.

任正非：欢迎你们明年这个时候再来，看看我们的身体是否健康，也可以随时来。

I would welcome you back again the same time next year to see whether we are safe and sound. You're welcome anytime.